Curse

Darkobra · Nov 26, 2006, 03:03 PM // 15:03

Paragons really do need a swift kick in the skills bar. Roaring Winds? Not the best counter really. At best, it takes a small energy bonus off their leadership ability. Vocal Minority is near useless as ANY good monk will take a hex remover. I personally take 2. Holy Veil and Inspired Hex. Diversion is VERY hard for a monk to counter when people are just spamming away. It's how I get rid of an elementalist's searing flames and shut them down entirely. It will work wonders against a paragon. Well of Silence? It's good. But very conditional. It requires a sacrifice near the paragon. The true counters to a paragon can be avoided or will do minimal damage to them.

Legendary Shiz · Nov 26, 2006, 03:08 PM // 15:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

No Counters: Ritual Lords could be interrupted to hell. Paragons can't. There's only one skill: [skill=text]Vocal Minority[/skill]. But it's still a hex, and it's easily removed, especially since every damn team is running a Divert Hexes. Decreasing the recharge of Vocal Minority to 5 seconds can alleve the Hex Removal, but it's not a permanent fix.

There's also a well, I beleive of Silence? I forget, cant use shouts or chants. Also there's a spirit that makes them more of a burden to cast. However, a lot of these things are VERY easy to get around. Viel the Paragons if you see a nec, and getting vocal off shouldn't be overly hard. And uh....don't stand in the well? And most of the time, the spirit that they bring isn't highly specced because it's in a weird attribute line (rangers), I forget what it is. Either its in a different attribute line, or it's just not that strong. Either way, you can wand the thing down in a couple of seconds.

I honestly can't wait till Paragons get nerfed, because they need it bad. Look at halls if you care to see why.

Redfeather1975 · Nov 26, 2006, 03:11 PM // 15:11

I don't think we should worry.
When players or game testers start finding powerful synergy between the hundreds of skills available, and that can take time to find, they do tweak skills to lower the effectiveness.
People will probably be angry over any change done, but we have to trust that skill testers and balancers are trying to find and tweak what they can.
Our lives aren't hinging on the balance of all this, let's just try and have some fun finding good counters to this new class. It may take time to find good builds that punch holes through the new skills' effectiveness.
I haven't played a paragon or gone up against many. This is just some advice that I hope will help soothe anyone out there who is getting too upset.

I was thinking about perhaps adding new core skills that help deal with skills introduced in further campaigns. Perhaps with some major updates a couple of new core skills can be added to each profession to help those who do not have the money to buy all campaigns still remain competent in the PVP game?

MithranArkanere · Nov 26, 2006, 03:44 PM // 15:44

Paragons have only 20 base energy and 2 pips of regen.

Now. Remember the new muting skills?

Bring a necromancer. No more shouts.

Darkobra · Nov 26, 2006, 03:52 PM // 15:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

Paragons have only 20 base energy and 2 pips of regen.

Now. Remember the new muting skills?

Bring a necromancer. No more shouts.

I don't know if you've ever fully played a paragon, but Leadership is an AMAZING way to recover that energy. And with adrenaline shouts like Watch Yourself taking NO energy, you can spawn even MORE energy. Those necromancer shutdowns? What are they? Hexes. A monk can remove them. Then you have your well. What does a well require? A corpse. Also it's very easy to just step out of them. When was the last time you saw some one willingly stand in a well of suffering?

Puebert · Nov 26, 2006, 04:46 PM // 16:46

Aww, I love my Paragon.

But yes, some skills need to be nerfed, or some necro skills should be buffed.

Its crazy fun.

falling demon · Nov 26, 2006, 04:57 PM // 16:57

don't nerf the skills, just add more counters, at the moment there is, meh, maybe 5 counters, whereas everything else has about 20/25, so just put some more counters for it in, maybe a condition too, 'sore throat' you cannot use chants or shouts, use a strepsil to cure this condition, haha, or perhaps a side effect to weakness: shouts and chants have a 50% chance to fail, i dunno, but don't nerf stuff, just add a few counters and weakness of the paragon

MithranArkanere · Nov 26, 2006, 05:26 PM // 17:26

THat's the spirit.

Something new is added and you don't like it? Why to remove it or make it useless? Just add more counters.

A Spirit of Silence for Ritualists.
A Scourge Shouts for monks.
An Illusion of Muting for mesmers...

Etc...

Rurik Jangeer · Nov 27, 2006, 06:19 AM // 06:19

That's exactly the way to go with this class!! Just like the above posters said, why nerf it? Why take something that people are having fun with, and ruin it? If you do that, It will just take everything back to the way it was pre-nightfall. If you add more counters to Paragons, PvP play in general will escalate in quality as people learn how to counter the counters. Then they will counter the counters of the counters, if I said that right lol. That's what makes the balance of this game so much fun. Why make the play worse, when you could make it so much better?

Zinger314 · Nov 27, 2006, 06:50 AM // 06:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rurik Jangeer

That's exactly the way to go with this class!! Just like the above posters said, why nerf it? Why take something that people are having fun with, and ruin it? If you do that, It will just take everything back to the way it was pre-nightfall. If you add more counters to Paragons, PvP play in general will escalate in quality as people learn how to counter the counters. Then they will counter the counters of the counters, if I said that right lol. That's what makes the balance of this game so much fun. Why make the play worse, when you could make it so much better?

If 10% of the players like the way the Paragon is, 90% don't. Who do you cater to?

Rurik Jangeer · Nov 27, 2006, 06:53 AM // 06:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

If 10% of the players like the way the Paragon is, 90% don't. Who do you cater to?

My post wasn't about catering to one side or another. Creating more counters would calm both sides if but a little. As I said, why dull the game when you could solve the problem and make the content better instead?

Terra Xin · Nov 27, 2006, 06:55 AM // 06:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

If 10% of the players like the way the Paragon is, 90% don't. Who do you cater to?

Source?

Illusion of Muting?>?? Come on, be more creative with Mesmer skill names...

Gee, a necromancer who has the ability to completely shut down an entire profession with a handful of skills... thats pretty balanced.

Zinger314 · Nov 27, 2006, 06:57 AM // 06:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terra Xin

Source?

I strongly doubt that the majority of PvPers think that Paragons are balanced.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terra Xin

Gee, a necromancer who has the ability to completely shut down an entire profession with a handful of skills... thats pretty balanced.

I strongly suggest you reread the OP, and read the section on Vocal Minority.

Thallandor · Nov 27, 2006, 07:12 AM // 07:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

I strongly doubt that the majority of PvPers think that Paragons are balanced.

Source? Start a poll or dont make assumptions.

No adrenline gain = no shouts.

Perhaps i should start a thread on how:

-Shambling Horrors are overoverpowered, lets nerf it
-mesmers interupts are too powerful lets nerf them too.
-Oh lets not forget Searing Flames, since so many people are QQing about it too.
-Oh dont forget mending as well since its overpowered, meaning healing is overpowered too, lets nerf monks.
-Lets nerf all NF skills and class while we are at this and remove Heros from the game also.

And since this is in suggestion forums.
/Not signed

lyra_song · Nov 27, 2006, 07:16 AM // 07:16

See it boils down to this:

Paragon shout effects are NOT removable.

Paragon counters are VERY removable.

Vocal Minority? Hex removal.
Sympathetic Visage? Hex removal.
Well of Silence? er...dont stand in the well.
Diversion? Well a Paragon has enough AL and DPS to stand around and not use any skills and still present a threat.
Roaring winds? Doesnt really do much. Increases shouts to +7 energy at 16 wilderness survival. Oh wait....you can kill it since goes up to lvl 4 only.

I play a Paragon. I LOVE her. But she is definitely overpowered and needs to be balanced for the good of the game. I only play 2 shouts, Aggressive Refrain and Go For the Eyes. It gives me a CONSTANT IAS and a high chance of critical hits, since i gain energy rapidly, i can spam spear of lightning over and over.

Gredinus · Nov 27, 2006, 09:15 AM // 09:15

Spiteful Necromancer
Necromancer/Elementalist

Curses 16 (12+4)
Soul Reaping 12

Glyph of Lesser Energy
Spiteful Spirit
Suffering
Reckless Haste
Ulcerous Lungs
Vocal Minority
Parasitic Bond
Resurrection Signe

Theus · Nov 27, 2006, 10:11 AM // 10:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gredinus

Spiteful Necromancer
Necromancer/Elementalist

Curses 16 (12+4)
Soul Reaping 12

Glyph of Lesser Energy
Spiteful Spirit
Suffering
Reckless Haste
Ulcerous Lungs
Vocal Minority
Parasitic Bond
Resurrection Signe

A Hex Removal skill with a 5 second recharge,namely Divert Hexes > Your build.

It's so funny how so many players have a PvE mindset when it comes to PvP..Do you really think a Monk is going to allow you to shut down their major Energy battery?

Lord Zado · Nov 27, 2006, 12:57 PM // 12:57

I have played my Paragon almost exclusively since release. I love the class so much. I agree that it is a bit overpowered. The durations on Incoming and Angelic Bond are fine. Increasing Energizing Finale and Incoming to 10 energy would be reasonable. But like a few others said, instead of completely nerfing the class, add more counters! I definitely think there should be a condition that affects shouting. The beauty of this game was no matter what build people came up with, you could always find ways to counter it. Now it's more of a "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em" situation.

I LOVED my spirit spamming Rit when Factions came out, but they nerfed that class so much, I pretty much stopped playing Ritualist at all. Paragons need a bit of a nerf, but I hope it ends up along the lines of the MM "nerf". The MM nerf was creative and left the class completely viable. Hopefully they think of equally creative ways to keep the Paragon in balance without just reducing the effectiveness of many of the common builds.

The Silver Star · Nov 27, 2006, 01:13 PM // 13:13

/signed

In my opinion well.. a Paragon is like an over powered Ritualist that cant be interupted on Shouts and the shouts cant be removed, however a Ritualist could be interupted on every spirit and the spirits could be killed thus removing the effect. And lets no forget a Paragon has higher armor than a Rit. Anti Paragon skills are simply to easy to "get around".

I love paragons but they are clearly overpowered (mainly in PvP) i mean there is NO WAY to remove a shout/chant from somebody its like an enchantment that cant be removed :| I played the Dual Paragon build the other day because i was frustrated when facing it, it even beats the heavy hex "anti" dual paragon most of the time.

lilnate22 · Nov 27, 2006, 02:10 PM // 14:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

If 10% of the players like the way the Paragon is, 90% don't. Who do you cater to?

not 10-90 id say about 30-70.. and a goof 50 of that 70 are ppl that do HOH and cant seem to find a counter for paragon hold builds. me personaly have no truble shutting a down a paragon hold build.

true well of silence needs a corpse. but if you cant get a corpse in HA.. dont play at all. vocal minority can be removed. true. but ur supposed to put pressure on the monks so that they cant remove it.

do note that most of the skills u ppl want nerfed are elites... which is SUPPOSED to be good to begin w/
but if you want to all anal w/ paragons heres some skills that should be nerfed to hell like some of you ppl say.

zealous benediction: omg at 13 prot it heals for 160hp+xx NERF NERF! i cant have that running in HA!! omg! nerf it plllllzzz anet im too stupid to come up w/ a counter for this.

SF-ok this one needs a serius nerfing

ROA- omg nerf it nerf it! 25e is wayyyy too low for a ranger! plz anet nerf it! i mean a ranger has only 30 energy s
GOL- omg nerf this one too! 2 sec recharge is wayy to fast!
scribe insight- 3 enrgy??! omg thaz wayy too much plz anet nerf this one to hell to!
crippling slash-omg 4 adrenaline is wayy to low! plz anet enerf it! make it something like 10 energy!

if you didnt notice the sarcasm... u kno now.
hell all of the skills should be over 10e! cuz some of us are too stupid to come up w/ counters!

each of those "nerf needing skills" have plenty of counters
i do belive we are in need of some new conditions and hexes but not nerfs
add a condtion like say deffness and maybe have weakness be unable to shout.